I had a conversation with a friendly atheist recently that leaves me scratching my head.  The reason is that, as I have found so often to be the case, he wouldn’t play by his own rules.  This young man wanted to only address what was “provable” as true, but kept using his own personal and subjective experience as evidence in support of his “proving-a-negative” thesis (there is no God – proven by the absence of proof).  He even, at one point, said that the growing number of educated people who don’t believe in God is evidence that there is no God.  This after denying my assertion that the billions of people who believe in God gives credence to a “something” “out there” that people experience in a meaningful way.  I spoke of the great good that his been done in the name of God throughout the centuries.  He countered that the acts of humans in the name of God does not prove God’s existence, but then he proceeded to number the great atrocities done in the name of God as proof that God doesn’t exist.  I talked about the transformative encounters with the divine in every generation of human existence through recorded time, but he argued that these were mere “hiccups” in our brain chemistry, and besides even more people did not have such experiences, so based on the weight of numbers, the “proof” was against, not for — and anyway, subjective experience should not be allowed.  He told me he had prayed, and nothing had ever happened to him, which “confirmed his suspicions” that there was no God.  Apparently, only his experiments are objective.  We talked about the power of prayer.  He explained that the connection between prayer and any tangible outcome was unprovable, and besides, even if a causal connection could be proven, it would do nothing to indicate that God has anything to do with it.  I brought up the distinction between the physical and the metaphysical — the difference between proving what and how versus why, and he patiently explained that there is no why, only what and how — that why presumes a source and intention, and that is the very thing that cannot be proven.  So I asked him what evidence exists that disproves source and intention, and he scoffed that there is no evidence, therefore it is untrue.  (in his mind, you can prove a negative…).  I asked, “So if I say – if I’m lying, may God strike me dead where I stand! – and I am not struck dead, this proves there is no God?”  “Well, it certainly raises the question,” he replied.

I have read Dawkins.  I have read Hitchens.  I have read Harris.  It always perplexes me the double standards they employ to make their points, tossing out scientific method or journalistic integrity in order to make their points.  They resort to the very kind of “sloppy” thinking they attack.  They twist and misuse “evidence” to make subjective and conditional points.  They state as “truth” that which they feel no responsibility to “prove.”  They won’t engage in any kind of philosophical inquiry — they only want “scientific” debate, defined by their own personal set of rules.  Consistently, the rely on irrational approaches to attack the irrationality of religious belief.

The saddest thing to me is that they make some excellent points.  They go after the “low-hanging fruit” of religious hypocrisy, fanaticism, duplicity, materialism, corrupted values, poor scriptural interpretation and application, and human fallibility and shine the light of reason on our many foibles and failings.  They document the one-thousand-and-one-ways that imperfect humans live out imperfect faith.  Then they make the spurious leap that our inadequacies prove the absence of a divine creator God.  They gleefully pick apart the ignorant creationist views of a lunatic fringe of Christianity — apply it to the entire theological spectrum — and use the flawed arguments of flawed people to show that a “perfect God” would not allow such idiocy (therefore, there is no God…).  They will only engage in a discussion of the grand-old-white-guy-in-the-clouds-with-a-flowing-beard image of God, because this childhood/childish image is so ludicrous that is makes Christians seem credulous and vapid.  They won’t regard the serious academic theologians in their arguments, preferring instead to attack featherweights like Warren and McLaren.  If you launch your attacks against the most simplistic and superficial thinkers, you are guaranteed of winning every time.  But all this “attack” energy results in debate rather than dialogue, and adversity rather than collaboration.  Outside eyes are needed to raise questions about the failings and weaknesses of religious practice, and God knows (I am still assuming God’s existence…) we need improvement.  Faith can always benefit from the rigors of critical thinking.  If it can’t, then it isn’t worth much to begin with.

But I also realize that not everyone feels this way.  Here is an excerpt from a letter I received this week from a friend in Nashville.  I was her advisor at Vanderbilt University about five years ago when she began her Ph.D. work in genetics.

As you know, I taught a young adult Bible study at <my> United Methodist Church since 2002.  I love the class and the discussion we have and the openness to deal with new and sometimes controversial ideas.  I have always felt safe there.  But when I got my Ph.D. and announced that my intention is to do research in genetic re-engineering, the pastor of the church asked me to step down from teaching my class.  He told me I was sending the wrong message and that he and others in the church are not comfortable allowing someone to teach who is knowingly violating the sanctity of life and disrespecting the will of God.

I am what you called a “religious rationalist.” (A person who holds scientific knowledge and spiritual knowledge in two spheres — the physical and metaphysical — balancing an empirical way of knowing with a trans-rational way of knowing.)  I have found no contradiction between what I have learned in science and what I believe about God.  Certainly my way of believing is not 100% compatible with others in my church, but I am still a Christian, and I am a person of faith when I do my work.  Why can’t I be a person of science when I worship and teach?

Why, indeed.  If we are created in the image of God, then the development of our minds and intellects is holy work.  As stewards of our bodies, minds, and spirits, we should be doing all we can to develop and improve all three.  All three are gifts to us from God, and our faith teaches that God expects that we will employ excellent stewardship of all our gifts.  We should care for our physical bodies.  We should sharpen and improve our minds.  And we should deepen our relationship with the divine and open ourselves to the mysteries of
God.  The good, the beautiful, and the true should be attended equally.  Ethics, philosophy, and science are all equally legitimate pursuits.  To preference one at the expense of the others is self-defeating, and ultimately irrational.

48 responses to “Irrational Rationalization”

  1. LS Avatar
    LS

    The other fundamental mistake you make throughout the entire article is assuming that atheism claims that no god exists. This is probably the most egregious error and really the one that makes me think you didn’t read any of Dawkins/Harris et.al. honestly if at all.
    You need to go back and reread what they say about this as well.

    LS

  2. LS Avatar
    LS

    The author claims to have read Dawkins, Harris, et. al. but (s)he instead gives the awful impression of not having understood a single thing any of these authors have written.

    This argument breaks down right away in the sidebar: “Atheism, the belief that….”. This is a mistake so fundamental that the rest of this article can be safely ignored – the author clearly hasn’t done any honest homework on the position (s)he is attacking.

    I’d say it’s back to the drawing board; try again….
    L

    1. doroteos2 Avatar
      doroteos2

      Give some specific examples (and don’t just fixate on the joke graphic). I offer analysis, you just say I don’t know what I am talking about. What are you afraid of? Talk about the specifics in a sensible, rational way, and don’t sink to the lowest level employed by Dawkins, Hitchens, and the other pedants who don’t want real dialog, but only to mock and deride. Engage the article, not just your own contempt.

      You did make me go back and read the article — which makes me wonder if you did. What points are you disagreeing with — since I make points on both sides of the argument, you can’t say you disagree with the whole article. (Well, you could if you didn’t actually read it…)

      1. LS Avatar
        LS

        I already gave you the first one: your statement that begins “Atheism, the belief that….”

        Atheism is not a belief system – all the authors you claim to have read address this point in considerable detail, particularly Sam Harris. All the other fallacies you commit in your article (the argument from popularity, argument from authority, and so on) are also covered extensively by each of these authors.

        You should also look up the following fallacies (which you also commit):
        – argument from incredulity
        – argument from authority
        – argument from popularity.
        and go through your original article again.

        Lots of fundamental errors there. You have a lot of work to do before you could be taken seriously.

        LS

      2. doroteos2 Avatar
        doroteos2

        Yeah, the graphic is a joke, and other atheists are entitled to their “beliefs.” Look, you’ve made up your mind to be contemptuous, you’ve adopted a position as open as fundamentalism, and you’ve abandoned reason. Your narrow-mindedness makes any conversation problematic, but I do understand where you are coming from.

      3. Mark Avatar
        Mark

        “Then they make the spurious leap that our inadequacies prove the absence of a divine creator God.”

        I would say only this: Any inadequacies explicit or implicit (and let me tell you, that’s a pretty long and dirty list, and sadly partial), have nothing to do with why I or many others chose not to believe in any god. And I would tend to disagree with LS that atheists CAN believe in gods, since the denotation of the word is the lack of gods (simplified). I simply am driven by evidence only, and lack the faith to believe in anything without it. From an early age, grade school at most, I questioned any story (Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, God) that had no evidence beyond my parents sneaking money under my pillow, presents under trees, and cookies in their stomachs. This proves absolutely nothing about your God, except that I don’t believe in him, much as any evidence, arguments, theories, etc. that you have do nothing but prove that you DO believe in him. Speculation beyond this by either side, no matter how many degrees one has on his or her wall digresses to “pedantry” rather quickly.

        “They gleefully pick apart the ignorant creationist views of a lunatic fringe of Christianity — apply it to the entire theological spectrum”

        I actually do love to do that…but seriously, more than just a handful of fringe believe in this. I live in the south. There are states, counties, cities, and individual schools all across the south, and some in other areas as well, that are not only rejecting the teaching of evolution at all, but replacing it in science class with creation. Does that sound like a minority to you? Biologists at my college had to go to Texas, which if you don’t know, holds the most sway over what gets printed in textbooks, just to make sure that evolution remained intact in said books. Creation as science? Other than thought experiments, what Scientific experiments have concluded the existence of God that merits its teaching in a classroom that is there for the practice of the scientific method?

        These people are not on the fringes of Christianity, but unfortunately, in many places, right at the heart of it. Whether or not your beliefs align with those of fundamentalist Christians does not change the possible irreparable damage they could have on science.

        All this being said, there are people among us atheists that are just as fundamentalist, although in our defense, true atheists have only one belief: no gods. The deviation for us is in what we believe of you faith-havers. I for one am a pragmatist. You and your beliefs are going nowhere, but neither am I. I don’t believe a word of scripture other than parts that just tell you to be a good person, which is universal, but I don’t think less of those who do. I just wish that all on your side could say the same to me and my beliefs.

      4. Mark Avatar
        Mark

        I forgot one other I wanted to touch on:

        “Consistently, the rely on irrational approaches to attack the irrationality of religious belief.”

        I think you are in error to bring this up, as “irrational,” which is not synonymous with “bad,” “evil,” or anything like that, comes up a copious amount in both sides’ arguments. The problem with applying rational thought to religion is faith. Faith in itself, aside from Pascal’s Wager, is not rational. When entering into a philosophical debate about the existence of God, faith is the academic conversation-ender. Pedantry follows. In my opinion, using rational arguments to counter something irrational would fall under the “apples to oranges” category.

      5. doroteos2 Avatar
        doroteos2

        Mark, you are right; irrational simply means irrational. I have no problem honoring your beliefs… I’m just not willing to give your beliefs more credence than the beliefs of others. You and I are influenced and convinced by different sets of what we accept as evidence. Were religious belief a simple division between lower-intelligence people are religious/higher-intelligence people are not, I could give more weight to your argument (and let’s be honest. The most educated and intelligent among us prefer agnosticism to religious, anti-religious, or atheistic options.) I know way too many people in the stratosphere of I.Q. and academic acumen who are religious to accept that religion is the playground of the simple, the stupid, and the unenlightened. And I know way too many people who defend their lack of faith in illogical and with deeply flawed thinking. This is a loser’s game if we try to make any clean divisions.

        A few year’s ago, I was part of a symposium on religion and theology (where I got to meet E. O. Wilson and Stuart Kaufman), and one woman micro-biologist was furious that the group had to waste its time talking about religion and the relationship of science and religion. In her mind, there is no relationship because all religious belief is bogus and false. Then, we tested a new tool for gauging intelligence, and I ended up with the third highest I.Q. in the room. Suddenly, I was acceptable. Instead of disdaining me, this woman entered into incredulous conversation with me, trying to understand how a smart person could believe in God. A simple test changed our whole dynamic, which illuminates the materialistic bias we have for such things. When we didn’t know I was intelligent, we could dismiss everything I believed and said because I was obviously stupid. But when we shattered the illusion, the paradigm shifted. I think part of our problem is the assumptions we make about who we are in conversation with. The more mythic/magic, moralistic, less-informed, less intellectual voices of evangelical Christianity have made it more difficult for everyone. Having traveled and worked in research as extensively as I have the past decade, I DO believe this group is a minority, but it is a powerful, defining minority that make honest, reasonable and productive discussion almost impossible between religious, anti-religious, agnostic and atheistic individuals and groups. My grace is that I have a large circle of atheist and agnostic friends (I haven’t found much common ground with those who simply hate religion and feel it is their mission in life to attack those they disagree with — the same fault I find with ultra-conservatives and fundamentalists with the same bent). What started all of this is my chief grievance — those who try to use an unfair, biased, and incomplete argument against religion to make their points. These folks — and I place Dawkins and Hitchens squarely in their center — know better, and I don’t think it serves them well to resort to the equivalence of non-religious proof-texting to make themselves look superior to people who believe differently than they do. Were writers to be so ignorant as to attack all “science” they would immediately lose all credibility (with those with half a brain or no axe to grind…)

  3. grammarking Avatar

    If I may, I’d like to take a bit of a stab at correcting your friendly atheist friend and hopefully clarify a few things. There’s a lot to look at so this may take a while, bear with me.

    The demotivational image (I presume it’s a response to the Zombie Jesus one, given the way it’s worded) is a pretty poor representation of atheism. Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in a god. It’s not even necessarily the belief that there is no god, that’s a subset of atheism called strong atheism. Atheism has nothing to do with big bang cosmology or evolution (both of which are also described terribly). It just so happens that both of those theories are backed up by pretty solid evidence, but it was perfectly reasonable to be an atheist before they were even conceived of. You’ll notice that more or less the only people who do not accept these theories are ones with religious beliefs. Those without an agenda accept it almost universally.

    Most theists and many atheists assume that since we don’t believe God caused the big bang, that means we must believe nothing did it. First of all, does it even make sense to talk about cause and effect at the time of the big bang, since time itself started at that time? I’m not so sure. Many theists seem to think that scientists not knowing what caused the big bang is itself evidence that a god did it, but why is it that scientists have to back up their claims with robust evidence, whilst theists can just make their claim and that’s it? Ok there may not be conclusive evidence in favour of one option, but where is the evidence for your proposition? It’s an argument from ignorance.

    Divine intervention is also a terrible explanation for the origins of the universe. We expect an explanation to give us more information about a phenomenon, but all theists do is say ‘X caused the universe, where X is defined as ‘the thing that caused the universe” and then call X God. There is no extra information there at all, it merely replaces one mystery with another. So why not just stick with ‘we don’t know’ for the time being, instead of pushing humanity’s hand early and obfuscating the search for a real answer?

    Blimey, 3 big paragraphs in and I’ve only touched on the big bang. Maybe I’ll leave it there for now.

    Cheers

    1. doroteos2 Avatar
      doroteos2

      I appreciate your attempts, but your oversimplifications are no better than anyone else’s. You’re right, you don’t do justice to the big bang, nor to the rich complexities of science OR theology dealt with with integrity… and that’s my point. No one on either side seems to want to deal with this in anything more than the simplistic, superficial, dismissive manner of the Dawkins, Hitchens, Pat Robertson’s, Lee Stroebel’s, etc. It is especially distressing with Dawkins, because he is smarter than this, but panders to pop-culture to ride his horse.

      My issue rests with both theologians and scientific academics who will not concede the bias and layers of inference in their arguments. Most spend more time talking about what their opponents don’t believe instead of what they themselves do believe. This isn’t dialog, but preemptive, presumptuous pedantry. Those who understand faith and don’t confuse it with certainty (on either side) have no problem with the “we don’t know” approach, but not knowing is not the same as simply accepting whatever one wants to. There are as many on the scientific side that seem uninterested in engaging in metaphysical exploration as there are spiritualists unwilling to explore physics.

      And I do love people trying to define “atheism” the same way they do “religious.” If one definition would do, it would be fine, but there is as wide a spectrum of atheists as there are Christians. I feel confident of this statement because I have engaged in conversation with more than one atheist. I always get a laugh when non-believers shift their attention away from who they don’t believe in to argue over what it means not to believe…

  4. Phil Avatar
    Phil

    In response to the pic of the definition of Atheism, most Atheist do believe that in the begining “something” did exist and for that matter did happen. The Big Bang Theory has been proven. Even most of my theist friends agree. The problem comes when they ask,”But what happened before that?” or “Where did all matter come from before the Big Bang?” To this, I do not know. They do not know either, however, they BELIEVE it was spoken into being, or a snap of the fingers, or a blink of the eyes, or whatever. I call this the “I Dream of Genie” approach to our existance, whereas, I BELIEVE something took place that we as the human race have yet to explain. That’s o.k., once upon a time we couldn’t explain what that big hot yellow ball in the sky was either.

    Although I do not know your friend, I apologize that not all of his points were valid. As it is with Christianity, not everyone is the best spokesperson for their beliefs (Kirk Cameron). And I may certainly not be for mine… but I will do my best.

    There is no way (as of yet) for anyone to KNOW if there is or is not a god. And for Christians, they can’t know. Knowing would negate faith. Faith is the cornerstone religion. If proof of God were to be found, all faith would be lost because it would no longer be required. Then what? Everyone would be forced to follow because the proof is staring everyone in the face. So much for free will.

    On the other hand Atheist are not trying to disprove God, they are simply seeking truth based on the given evidence. If that truth were to lead to the existance of God, I for one, would be willing to believe in a heartbeat. So far, that hasn’t happened. In fact the more we learn the secrets of our earth, our bodies, our universe… the less likely a god type figure would make sense to exist.

    I will give you this, it does take a certain amount of faith to be an atheist. Because there is no way to KNOW, I have to BELIEVE there is no God. However, the amount of faith it takes to believe in something, having no evidence of it, is much greater! Here’s an example.

    Being an Atheist is like wanting to go see a new movie. We have seen the movie trailer. We check the theater it will be playing in. We check the time it will be playing. We prepurchase a ticket online, and we have been to that theater before. Now, even with all the evidence we have, we still have to have a small amount of faith that the theater is goin to show the right movie at the right time. It’s not a huge leap of faith…but still, anything could happen.

    Being a Christian is like wanting to go see a new movie that alot of people have told you about, but themselves have not seen. You havn’t seen the trailer. You don’t know what theater it’s playing in or at what time. You don’t have a ticket (unless you count your bible). And you have never even seen if the theater exist. Yet, you drive off aimlessly fully expecting to see the movie you heard about from so many others. Now THAT takes faith. And unfortunatly, that just isn’t the kind of faith I have.

    There are many points on which we could debate and I would love any feedback you may have. Until then… God Bless!

    1. doroteos2 Avatar
      doroteos2

      The movie metaphor is interesting, but as with all metaphors breaks down if it doesn’t actually apply. Where most belief debates break down for me is over the matter of experience. I have atheist friends who are as open to the “no one knows for sure” approach to life. Valid religious belief isn’t about certainty — otherwise we wouldn’t use such terms as belief and faith to define it. Just as no one enters a movie without faith — until we’ve seen the movie, we don’t “know” whether it is good or not — no one decides what to believe and what to reject without subjectivity. In my life I have had a number of experiences that confirm my beliefs, and I have little doubt that they are real — for me. I have absolutely no desire to impose my beliefs on others, though I do share what I believe whenever I can. If others find value and “truth” in my experiences, all the better. If they do not, it neither invalidates my experiences or beliefs, nor does it reflect badly on them that they do not take my witness as valid and true for them. I just wish more of us could come to a common ground, share our worldviews and beliefs — as the subjective positions they are — and come away richer for the encounter instead of angry and divided.

  5. Megan Avatar
    Megan

    Have you noticed that the more science proves the less god is apparent. Scientifically he’s just as likely to exist as unicorns or the tooth fairy. I find it interesting.

  6. Eric Avatar
    Eric

    “They won’t regard the serious academic theologians in their arguments, preferring instead to attack featherweights like Warren and McLaren.”

    Who are the lightweight, welterweight, middleweight, light heavyweight, and heavyweight serious academic theologians?

    1. Noble Baker Avatar
      Noble Baker

      That was my first thought also. Who are the heavyweights? You give examples of the featherweights but not who you consider the heavyweights. Is that because you’re afraid to find out that their arguments HAVE been addressed?

  7. John L Avatar
    John L

    Good article, except for the too-derogatory bitmap of atheism at the beginning. Not a good way to open a dialog, eh?

    1. doroteos2 Avatar
      doroteos2

      Irony and sarcasm? Illustrating the point? Humor is a matter of taste, but that’s all it was… just a way of pointing out the absurdity of extremes.

    2. Lakeesha Avatar
      Lakeesha

      I think this was a brilliant jab at the silliness of the opposition. Sorry you missed it.

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